Digital Decisions: How to Optimize Your Website for Growth

Jon Cannon:

Not every business treats their website as a foundational content asset. In a lot of cases, especially in the B2B space, you can tell from the moment you look at the website. If it just visibly is dated, you know that an organization is not prioritizing their digital real estate.

Announcer:

Welcome to the podcast, B2B Insights, our take on a podcast series where we dive in and discuss all things B2B marketing. B2B Insights is brought to you by AvreaFoster, one of the most respected brand and digital marketing agencies in the Southwest. At AvreaFoster, we build authentic relationships so brands can grow and prosper. Learn more at AvreaFoster.com.

Matthew Petrikin:

All right, today we are discovering the path to answering the question: Do we rebuild or refresh our website? I’m joined by co-host Dave Foster, our CEO here at AvreaFoster, as well as myself, Matthew Petrikin, business development at AvreaFoster. We are delighted to have our guest here, Jon Cannon, a senior copywriter, digital content specialist here at AvreaFoster and brand strategist, who will walk us through the path to discovery. Dave, I’ll let you welcome in Jon.

Dave Foster:

So glad to have you today. Jon, that’s a lot of titles going on there, isn’t it?

Jon:

Yeah, long-time listener, first-time caller. Happy to be here.

Dave:

No kidding. Well, we appreciate you being here. You know, obviously we wanted to break the ice a little bit and just kind of ask you, if you had advice for someone who wanted to get into this field and what you do? What would that maybe look like?

Jon:

Just getting into this field in general? Well, when I talk to other writers, writers seem, you know, like a little bit of a dying breed. Copywriters used to kind of run the show in terms of creative strategy and marketing and advertising. And as that shifted towards pure strategist, towards digital roles and things like that,  I think a lot of places 10 years ago, de-emphasized writing. And now we’re seeing a swing back in the other direction. You know, “content is king” has kind of become one of the mantras of inbound marketing in particular. So going through the process of getting a copywriting education and building out a portfolio that’s heavy on writing supported by design, I think that there’s certainly a place for writers now, more so than there even was when I entered, you know, 10-ish years ago at this point.

Dave:

Absolutely. And it’s amazing how much smarter content is getting every single day, and the things that you’re having to work with and the tools that you have to work with. The next question we just wanted to ask is.

Matthew:

Oh, I love this. Well, Jon, I love talking with you after hours on just, you know, fun things, fun topics. So a little off topic, off industry. If you had to go to dinner with a historical figure, who would it be? And why?

Jon:

Oh, man. The prep that I wish I would have had. I could go in so many different directions on this. I can narrow down to two.

Matthew:

Okay, love it, love it. I knew you’d have great answers.

Jon:

So I’m a big Teddy Roosevelt guy. A renaissance man of the 20th century. So also a guy very gregarious in conversation, a lot of diverse interests, a lot to talk about. And I can, though my interests are not exactly aligned, I can echo that. So I think we would have a lot to say. He would have a lot to say. And then there is an early 20th-century French Algerian philosopher named Albert Camus, who’s also an author, wrote my favorite book. But kind of the godfather of narrative existentialism, very approachable version of that philosophy, and that’s something I got really into in college. And he was another kind of renaissance man. He wasn’t your kind of sad, lock-himself-up-in-his-room-and-write, existential philosopher. He loved sports. He loved going to the beach. He was very, very social, very dapper. He was featured on the cover of several like men’s magazines for his fashion as well as his philosophy. So really interesting guy that I would love to chat with.

Matthew:

A jack of all trades guy.

Dave:

Fascinating, yeah,

Matthew:

I would never heard of those. Well, Teddy, yeah, right.

Dave:

Very interesting. So last question before you get into it: What misperceptions in the marketplace, in our marketing, do you think need to be cleared out? Are there any misperceptions or misconceptions out there?

Jon:

I think they’re understandably arrived at, but a lot centered around the intersection between content, writing, creativity and AI. I mean, all of that is still being defined, and it’s the topic du jour in digital marketing. So it’s largely from people outside the industry, but the idea that AI can replace content generation, I think the analogy that I like to make is that when you’ve seen, you know, a dozen or so stock photos, you can start to tell the difference between a stock photo and something that was a curated editorial shoot used for marketing purposes, even if the construction visually of the images are really similar, I think you’re starting to see the exact same thing where you can, you can pick out AI copy, not even because it sounds poor. In some cases it does.

But there are certain, you know, consistent word choices adjectives that tend to show up a lot in AI writing that aren’t necessarily natural in a lot of marketers repertoire. In fact, I was on LinkedIn the other day, and I’ll make sure to send this to you as well. I was talking to Kenny Osborne, a creative director, and it was this whole laundry list of words that a senior-level copywriter put together just words that he is going out of his way to avoid using in his copy, because he sees them show up — regardless of industry, regardless of prompt. They’re just these little turns of phrase that AI, that ChatGPT in particular, tends to like. So now he’s actively avoiding those, to avoid his own copy being mistaken for being AI-generated.

So just like stock images, I think people are starting to kind of see the watermark of something that’s a little bit more artificial and something curated and crafted. So I think that’s probably the most top of mind. Obviously, as a writer, the most top-of-mind thing for me is being able to identify the differences and really understanding that AI is a tool for research, it’s a tool for ideation, it’s a collaborator. But I think the phrase I heard is that right now, caveat, right now, generative AI is a brain without a heart. So good writers have to be both a brain and a heart with a little bit of courage mixed in. And, you know, until generative AI can match all three of those, I think we’re safe for the time being.

Dave:

Yeah, good points, Jon. We’re all, you know, racing toward AI. And every time we do, more questions come up than answers do, seems like these days. But it’s definitely changing the landscape and marketing, as well as operations, in our clients’ business, and they’re all asking about it every single day.

Matthew:

It might be a topic down the road.

Dave:

Maybe, yes, it probably should. It probably should be.

Matthew:

Yeah, let’s jump into it. So, speaking of all those crafts that Jon just talked about, let’s jump into a blog post that Jon had written, done plenty of research on. I want to talk about this massive topic of: Do you rebuild or refresh your website? And I want to back up, because in some of these new business pitch meetings, or a new potential, new client. If you’re talking with them, they don’t really understand their own website. They don’t really understand the value of it. So what’s the importance of a website in general, from a marketing standpoint and on for your total business? I mean, overall, what’s the importance factor?

Jon:

Yeah, that’s, that’s a really good question, because it is kind of this nebulous thing. Not every business treats their website as a foundational content asset. In a lot of cases, especially in the B2B space, you can tell from the moment you look at the website. If it is just visibly dated, you know that an organization is not prioritizing their digital real estate, the way that they are their physical real estate, or kind of their people.

But we’re actually working on a blog post on this topic right now as well. People again, talking about how content is king, people dive headfirst into, you know, outbound content marketing, inbound content writing, but it’s not supported by they think of their website as like scaffolding that is just loosely supportive of their marketing efforts, of their digital advertising efforts, when really it’s not scaffolding. It should be foundational. It’s the forefront.

When you talk about word count, page count, depth of information, opportunities for interactivity, ability to be found organically, your website is your foundational content marketing piece. So if you’re not approaching it that way, I think you know you’re definitely leaving some meat on the bone. Even if you’re in a field or have a business with a very traditional approach to sales, you know you’re still going out and hitting the links and all of that stuff. If you think that that is a reason to not prioritize your digital real estate, someone else is going to come along and kind of upend what’s normal for digital in your space. And that’s most often where you hear people undervaluing websites in B2B. It’s because their competitors don’t seem to value it. But to me, what that says is: don’t ignore it. You just identified an opportunity to create new levels of differentiation by virtue of prioritizing digital in an industry or in a competitive set where it’s not currently being prioritized,

Matthew:

Right? And, you know, that brings me up to a side question. Dave, with the 30 years that we’ve been around, or AvreaFoster has been around, you know, through the years, obviously, websites came up as of recently. What are some websites you can think back on that truly transformed a brand when we stood it up, just a net-new website? What comes to mind?

Dave:

Well, I love telling the story about Southwest Airlines, when they were a great client of ours. And this has been many, many years ago before, really, when websites were nothing more than for sure where, and they were just something that was, you know, built by committee within companies back in those days. And there was not a lot of technology behind it, and they definitely were not a sales tool like they are today.

To Jon’s point, in terms of integrated with technology and marketing automation platforms, and again, search. But anyway, we had the opportunity to completely revamp Southwest.com and it was fascinating at the time. You couldn’t even buy a ticket off AA.com or Southwest.com. And so one of our biggest objectives was to allow a passenger to figure out how to buy a ticket the quickest way possible. And so we were put under pressure in terms of how long it took from A to B. Now this is talking about or A to Z, really, when they, you know, we’re trying to buy a ticket.

And this is again, at a time where I don’t even think mobile devices are around, so it was a different world. But it’s fascinating that, you know, we’ve come so far. The test bed for us at that time was how quickly someone could buy a ticket on Southwest.com using dial up at the time. And it’s just fascinating how far we’ve come, and really such a short period of time from those days to today. And so, you know, there’s so much more to think about in terms of integrating into technologies and sales platforms and the buyer persona and buyer journey, and you name it. There’s a lot more obviously to think about today. But anyway, that one stands out. We’ve done so many since then, with amazing brands that we’ve worked with. But that one’s always kind of a fun story to tell.

Matthew:

Not going to talk about our own website? We love our own website.

Dave:

Well, obviously. So that kind of, you know, begs right into the question which is next, and that is a lot of companies go through a transition where they need to refresh their site, or they need to do something different with their website, and a rebuild from ground up — it’s a major undertaking. It takes a lot of stakeholders. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of investment. And so none of the main focuses of this episode is that, you know, should they refresh a website versus ground up a website, a ground up, build a site from the ground up? What’s the difference between the two? And how they would approach that?

Jon:

Well, just by virtue of using kind of building language, I think that the neatest metaphor to discuss the differences between a rebuild and a refresh is to compare it to building a house.

A rebuild is kind of tear it down to studs at the bare minimum, or just building something from the foundation. Whereas a refresh, you can redesign a room in your house, you can completely restructure a room in your house, convert a bedroom into an office, without tearing the whole thing down. And that’s really the difference here.

Rebuild involves really going back to rethinking your CMS, rethinking your website structure, to the site map level. What’s our navigation? What are our core pages? What should this be built on? What tools do we need to support it? Whereas a refresh can be more purely aesthetic. Let’s re-approach messaging. Do we need an update to our brand? Do we need to cascade this new color palette and these new typefaces? Those are changes that can be made, whether it’s aesthetic or strategic or technical.

Some of those changes can be made in a really lightweight fashion to ensure that the website is refreshed and keeping up with the brand and keeping up with, you know, the kind of ongoing shifts in business. But there are technical reasons to rebuild plugins, tools going out of date, no longer being in compliance with what Google is recommending for search. The same way that that phone that was fast and brand new when you bought it four years ago suddenly struggles to download a single app and the tech used to be great, feels like recently. But that’s the speed of innovation, and that, just as it happens with hardware, happens with things that are based on the cloud, like websites.

So yeah, you can respond to business cases, you can respond to technical changes, you can respond to really big esthetic changes, and all of those can indicate we need to either refresh or rebuild.

Matthew:

Let’s talk about just a refresh. For instance, where do you sit as a, you know, copywriter, brand strategist? Where do you sit when a client comes to us and they just want to refresh what they’ve got? They like the core, like you said, bring it down to the studs. But how do you, you know, insert yourself and, you know, take that project on. Where do you kind of sit in that bucket?

Jon:

Yeah, I mean, it’s like any other project. It’s all about understanding where they’re coming from. In a lot of cases, people feel like, with any kind of project, they feel like they need a video. So they’re starting with the asset. They’re starting with the endpoint. You know, they think that they need to refresh, they don’t want to rebuild their website. They just want to update it, but they don’t necessarily know if that’s the right route that’s called for.

So it’s, you have to take a diagnostic and consultative approach to understanding: do they just not like what it looks like is there? Is it slow? Are they having trouble with, you know, spam form fills constantly that they can’t figure out? Is it performing poorly in search? So it’s being a consultant and saying, okay, and then taking a step back and asking all of those questions to understand what led them to that conclusion. Because walking in and saying: We need a new website, or we want to refresh our current website, that’s a conclusion. That’s the end of a conversation, not the beginning of the conversation. So you have to take that step back.

Dave:

Your analogy of building a home is interesting. Because, just like if you had a remodel, and you’re remodeling something that’s not worthy of remodeling. We have a lot of clients come to us, and they’ve built their website on a platform that is so outdated that they can’t keep it updated, you know? And so that’s kind of a foregone conclusion, or at least a path in the road that says: Hey, we can spend money and refresh, but it’s not going to get you where you need to be. Yeah, right? And so that would flip that decision, yeah, that’s

Jon:

It’s more of a website triage than anything else, right?

Dave:

I guess also refresh versus rebuild. Obviously, if a client’s going through a repositioning or a rebrand or something of that nature that you know, how would those play in refresh versus complete rebuild?

Jon:

Yeah, it depends on how long the current website has existed. That’ll inform some of the technical things, but it also you have to take into consideration the degree of the brand update that’s taken place. Was it holistic? Did everything change? Typeface, color palette, imagery that is commonly associated with the brand? Did the tone of voice change? Was this rebrand done to respond to a shift in the way that they present their service offering, or they’ve expanded their capabilities? They acquired somebody?

So again, it’s about taking that step back. Why did the rebrand happen? Is it purely aesthetic? If it’s purely aesthetic, then there may be an opportunity for a light refresh. If nothing structural needs to change, if everything under the hood is still operating at a high level, then you can go in and rewrite all the copy. You can swap out all the images. In some cases, you can make pretty big adjustments to color and things like that. But when a rebrand happens, because the DNA of the brand of the company has changed, that’s when you really, even if everything technical is, you know, more or less up to snuff — if the way that they go to market has changed, then the way that we go to market via the website has to change. And some of those differences can be so far reaching that they go back to sitemap. And then you do really need to start from the beginning.

Matthew:

I kind of want Dave to walk us through. I know we’ve already hit on AvreaFoster.com but I want to walk you through as a client of your own website. Walk us through that path of changing from the rebrand and the website a little of the old look and feel. And then, you transform that into the new look and feel. Walk us through that as a client, even in being able to have that input and hands on experience.

Dave:

Yeah, so we completely refreshed our brand in the last couple of years. And you know, that’s a big undertaking for any agency, because the cobbler’s children have no shoes. It’s very hard to do your own work. And so when we rebranded, we somewhat repositioned as well.

Coming out of Covid, a lot of things changed in our industry. We wanted to reposition ourselves a little bit differently. And so we found that, you know, trying to shoehorn that into the old site was probably pretty hard to do. We also wanted to up our game a lot on organic search as well as interconnectivity to marketing automation platforms, CRM for our own marketing, right? And so, we felt like it was worthy of a complete rebuild because of those other things were happening at the same time.

You know, if we had just done an identity change and wanted to have a different color palette or something of that nature, we could have probably refreshed, but it was bigger than that. And so I think clients probably go through that very same process, right? It’s what is your threshold for budget as well, too, because that’s going to drive a lot of this. Refresh is a lot less expensive to do than a rebuild. But at the end of the day, it gets to the point where you’re throwing good money after bad to try to refresh something. Back to the analogy of a house. If you’re trying to remodel a house, it’s not worthy as such. You know that gets into trouble. Get you into trouble pretty quick.

Jon:

Yeah, and refreshing your website, from an aesthetic and user journey standpoint, doesn’t do anything to extend the lifespan of the technical underpinnings of the website. So you can convince yourself that you can stave off the rebuild by a couple of years because it looks better, but that website’s going to get slower over time. That website is going to perform as a consequence of that and other things, that website is going to perform worse in organic search over time. It’s going to get heavy. Your technical debt is going to build and build.

So there are cases where the minor adjustments of a refresh are the advisable course. And it’s not, you know, it’s not worth tearing it down and rebuilding it. But we never recommend a Band-Aid refresh, I guess you would call it. You know, we know you need a rebuild. You don’t feel like you want to pay for that right now. You’re going to pay more, and you’re going to be paying for a refresh and then a rebuild a year and a half later, because you’re going to like the way it looks. But a lot of times that involves bringing in video, bringing in animations on scroll and parallax and things like that, which, again, that’s weightier code. Those are weightier interactions. So in making it look better, you can also hasten, you know, the time leading up to that full rebuild.

Matthew:

I’ll go back to this, because you bring up a great point about budget, and you bring up a great point about, you know, it seems like your team rebuild over refresh, in some sense. What are some common reasons? You know, because we sit in these meetings and people in the new pitch and they say, “We’re good with this. I don’t really want to touch the website.” What are some commonalities or reasons to refresh and not rebuild? I’m just playing the other side here to “team refresh” over here. What are some common reasons to go that path?

Jon:

I mean, refreshing your website is a very worthwhile course of action. If I sound defensive around it, it’s because refresh is very often brought up as an alternative. Because, you know, the potential client knows that they need to rebuild, and they’re trying to kind of get around that. But refreshes definitely have their place. You know, you’ve added a service. You’ve expanded a capability. You added a new location. Your leadership team has shifted. You’ve updated your core messaging. You know, updating your messaging is something that you can, especially with modern CMSs, you can plug and play with where content fields are allocated. And you should be updating your messaging. You should be A/B testing your messaging. All of those things can happen without making drastic changes to the structure and strategy of the website.

So you can and, like I said, you can and should iterate on whatever you went live with after your last rebuild. You should be using these refreshes to iterate and improve and tighten up, stay contemporary. You know, you brought on a new team, maybe brought on a new marketing director, and they’ve got a vision — that vision needs to be carried through to the website. And in a lot of cases, that is a messaging and sometimes an imagery-oriented task that has refresh written all over it.

You know, “We offered eight services. We added a ninth.” Those are things that are just. And if the website’s well built, it should be a sandbox that allows for this kind of modular expansion. Right now, on the topic of rebuild versus refresh, that gets into a whole other can of worms, of who built your last website? How was it built? What platform was it built by a competent team? Was it built by a team who is intentionally trying to keep you tethered to them by use of an unmanageable CMS, or a proprietary CMS?

You know, 10 years ago in the agency world, there was a huge uptick in agencies developing their own white-labeled CMSs that no one but them could use. So there are tactics that certain agencies can use to really keep you attached to them for all things web. You know, sometimes the change that you need is a refresh level, but you have to rebuild it because the previous CMS is unsupported or proprietary or unworkable. So there are a lot of different reasons that point you in either direction. But yeah, there are so many use cases for a refresh. It’s all of those lightweight changes that should be happening,

Dave:

and you bring up something else interesting. You know, we talk with either marketing directors or CEOs about their platform that they specifically use. What sort of platforms have you seen, you know, success with rebuild or refresh? Because I know it’s a topic that comes actually, fairly quickly, believe it or not, that it’s like, “Oh, what platform are you on?”

I know our team, our digital team, wants to know as soon as possible, but they also need to know on the maintenance side. So I know there’s some out there that are popular, that allows for the interface user to make those edits and changes as needed, as well. As you know, it’s still built up strong. It’s not the scaffolding out front. It’s the core of the website. And so, you know, what have you seen there?

Jon:

Yes, I must caveat, I’m a writer rather than a developer. So this is, this is kind of personal opinion only, but it’s definitely borne out in the majority of the websites that we do, especially in the B2B space. WordPress is pretty hard to beat, but it is talking about a sandbox. It is a wide open sandbox. WordPress is as effective as you make it and as clunky as you allow it to be. So using WordPress gives you, in my opinion, the greatest degree of customization. And with competent and talented developers, you can build out a website back end on WordPress that is as easy to use as some of the more kind of plug-and-play, drag-and-drop interfaces. But it is significantly more customized to the unique needs of the business that needs that website to perform for them. So being able to tailor the back end of the website to be usable by the least tech-literate person,

Matthew:

Business development people.

Jon:

There you go. So being able to cater to that audience. The output of that being really, really refined and hyper-specific. What we talk about with clients all the time, going through branding projects is the increased value of authenticity in a world that feels like it’s getting less authentic, and that carries through and can be felt kind of intangibly when you’re interacting with a website. Just like AI versus real text. This stock image versus editorial image. You can tell the difference if you spend any amount of time online. You can tell the difference between a templated website, an edited website template in something that is wholly custom to the business that has the website out there.

So in addition to serving users of the best and being the best articulation of your offering and differentiation, a fully custom, well-built website on a platform like WordPress also provides a degree of intangible cache that I think legitimizes your business. So if you are, you know, at the top of your space, you have to maintain that, and you need to execute at a certain level. But if you are a disruptor in your space, really investing in this area of your marketing can really pay dividends. Because, apples to apples, they can’t tell the size, the differences in size of your team. They can’t tell the difference in size of your operation. Websites are really a level playing field. So you can come in with a fully custom approach that is high-end and conveys that to the world and use that to really steal some market share.

Matthew:

Yeah, absolutely no free shout outs. But WordPress is, I know, a popular one.

Dave:

Jon, just a little bit about content. When it does come to sites, not that content is really any different in a refresh versus a rebuild. But maybe let’s lower that wall a little bit and just talk about content in general. Because I’m sure you’re dealing with helping to position a company in the marketplace on the site, as well as you have to drill into the high-ranking keywords that we want that site to be able to draw to. Is that a balancing act, especially these days, with the fine-tooth comb being put on AI and helping us better embed keywords and content and those kinds of things, is that kind of a juggling act?

Jon:

It is, and the juggling act has shifted over the last decade. So with every talk about the intersection between search and content, with every algorithm update that Google publishes, their goal is to get better and better at crawling websites and reading them as if it was a person reading them and deciding what, not what has the most keywords. Although keywords are always going to be important, not who has stuffed the most keywords into a page, but who has the most pertinent and useful information.

That’s a direct response to what real searchers, real users of Google, are asking. So you have to, I mean, it can be a great boon to content writers, because with the right tools, we know exactly what our ideal customer is asking for, and we can answer it and answer it in a way that gets us to rank well and gets us to be an asset before they’ve actually reached out to us for anything tangible. But on the brand side, what I always say is that your website should not be where you are figuring out your messaging. In a lot of places, businesses will use the process of having to write this whole website and use that really, as the battleground where they decide what message is going to win out. What do we need to say? And if you are, especially if you’re writing your homepage, and you’re figuring it out on the fly while you’re writing that website. You’ve skipped a major brand-building step.

That messaging should be built out during a brand-building process, so that you’re then extrapolating it, expanding it, getting into detail on the website. But you shouldn’t be making many brand-level messaging decisions on the website. The website is a place where you should be deploying a strategy that was already built and aligning it with SEO best practices and ensuring that it serves to educate and inform and engage the user and convert them eventually. But you shouldn’t be making big brand swings from a messaging standpoint for the first time on a website. That shouldn’t be a proving ground.

Dave:

We’ve experienced that. We do have clients from time to time who want to completely rebuild their website, and, you know, they try to shoehorn in a brand assignment or a positioning assignment. That is not the time to do it. That’s a totally different exercise that you need to get done and in place and tested and proven before you ever hit content on the site. It informs, obviously, the content on the site, but it is not the same exercise, right?

Jon:

So using the house analogy, you don’t want people making decisions about floor plan while they are laying, they’re pouring foundation. They should know what shape that slab needs to be before they start building.

Dave:

That is a great point, a great point.

Matthew:

So in wrapping, Jon, I would challenge you to answer the question: Do you rebuild or refresh a website? You know, when it makes sense, you know, tell the listeners out there at least something to leave with, whether they’re thinking about it, or it’s on their horizon, or their budgeting for it. What’s something to look out for, or something to kind of jumpstart this process — to understand what should we go with this or should we completely rebuild?

Jon:

Yeah, in the simplest terms, the lifespan of a website is around five years. It’s really similar to the advice that we give for the lifespan of a brand. Conveniently, those are often tied together. So if you have a website that is on the wrong side of that five-ish year window, it’s time to reconsider refreshes, like I said, are great for a lot of things.

They’re very tactical, and they’re a response to shifts in messaging expansion and service offering and things like that. But the rebuild is going to come. No amount of improving the aesthetics and the messaging and the user journey of your website. That’s great for the people that get there, but that doesn’t do anything to get them to the website in the first place. And that doesn’t do anything to help your website look faster. It’s not going to fix your outdated and broken plugins. It’s not going to fix your broken CMS. There’s a certain point where the refresh does become purely aesthetic.

So if you’re on the wrong side of that, that five-year window, a rebuild. Or if you’ve gone through, like I said, a big, robust rebrand, you acquired someone radically reformatted your service offering, the rebuild is the wise choice. And long term, it’s going to be the less expensive choice. Would you rather rebuild or refresh and then rebuild it?

Matthew:

Well, awesome. Well, we really appreciate you spending the time and taking the time out of your day to talk with us, and we enjoyed the conversation. So thanks.

Dave:

Thank you, Jon. Appreciate you.

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